think that you do not need to present ZETA ZERO to anyone. Every year presentations during the Audio Video Show attract hundreds, if not thousands, of people who want to see and listen to some of the most original columns(loudspeakers) available on the market today. And I do not mean by any means only our domestic market, but also global. Zeta Zero Orbital 360 belong to a group of interesting constructions - these are all-directional (omnipolar) speakers.

Probably you immediately thought about such columns MBL Radialstrahler, is not it? Orbital 360, and their latest version of Bi-Stereo, are completely different, original, developed by Zeta Zero, Polish constructions. I listened to them during the exhibitions a few times and - to be honest (to which I admitted also to Mr. Tomasz Rogula, the head of the company) - I was completely astounded. It's just that really few components and systems can do it during exhibitions. Only much later, when I was able to listen to the products at home or in controlled conditions, I found out that they are really unique.

In the case of Zeta Zero, I have not had such an opportunity so far. So when I heard that I have to test their columns for this "High Fidelity" number, I rubbed my hands - in the end there will be an opportunity to verify the legendary (almost) legendary about their unique, excellent, wonderful, amazing sound. The fate, however, sometimes plays pranks and the test (for now) has failed. Instead, I went to the Zeta Zero headquarters near Warsaw to meet with Tomasz Rogula, the owner and constructor of the company, and talk to him about his passions and products.

Conversation with TOMASZ ROGULA, the owner and main engineer behind Zeta Zero brand; interviewer: MAREK DYBA

Tomasz, because it's probably the first meeting of the magazine "High Fidelity" with Zeta Zero, I suggest starting from the beginning, from history. Tell me, how did you start your adventure with music and whether the adventure began on the hardware side, or maybe from the recording, because Zeta Zero is just a part of your business - the other is TR Studio recording studio.
TOMASZ ROGULA: It's my dad who played the piano fantastically and instilled in me listening to music. Pretty early, because at the age of 7-8, I became interested in what dad plays. He was the owner of something called Claviset. This is a GDR (East Germany) instrument that still stands in my studio and which meant a great deal to Polish music, but I will tell about it later. In any case, Dad had his own playing devices plus a ZK140 reel to reel tape recorder, still a tube one, and I was intrigued by it as it all works.

At the age of 7 or 8, I started to open these devices to Dad, without his knowledge, and unfortunately sometimes ruin them. As a result, I became very interested in electronics, because it was clear to me that it is thanks to him that you can enjoy listening to music. I spent every free moment, including holidays, in the basement trying to build various electronic devices. I focused on amplifiers and loudspeakers. The latter seemed to me a simple construction, judging from my father's loudspeaker, which I had started, and I did not understand the first ones, so the more I was intrigued.

The experiments with my father's column ended with the burning of one loudspeaker, which I had to fix myself before my Dad found out. So as a small kid I repaired the coil in a 15-inch speaker, and my Dad never even realized that something was wrong. It was an educational experience for me.

The preamp in the picture was additionally equipped with a very provisional but quite effective, proprietary system, analogous to the so-called Dolby, so-called Dolby. DOLBY HX system (dynamic modulation of the undercurrent in the magnetic recording) which resulted in a very wide bandwidth of up to over 38 kHz at the belt travel speed = 19 cm / s and with full actuation of the tape to the saturation limits!

From the plywood, from which the paneling was placed in my parents' apartment, I built a column, I used two long copper “mustaches” in it, which ran on copper sheets cut with scissors, leading the current. To drive the column's rotation I used an asynchronous motor from my Dad's old tape recorder. The column was spinning, shaking, but it was working. The copper mustache sparked, but the column rotated at several rotations per second, and the sound effect was pretty cool. Proud of this, I invited my girlfriend to an “audiophile” listening session, after which I heard that the column was ...dreadful and the music.... sucked. And that's how my fascination ended. With the girl naturally, not columns.

I must, however, forgive my colleague - the column, and indeed it looked dreadful, and to listen I chose a piece from the album, which, as I heard recently on the radio, even an excellent music journalist Piotr Kaczkowski still considers difficult - *Ummagumma** Pink Floyd. For me, however, it was important that I got a presentation from a single column, which did not sound like a monophonic. Later, developing my passion, I came to the Electronics Workshop for Young People, and tangible proofs of this passion were prizes won in various competitions for young people.

And everything else in primary school?
Rogula:Yes. Then came the high school times. I had a lot of fun then, because I already had my own build myself reel-to-reel tape recorder. It was an unusual construction because I used a certain grip, some solution. It was not my invention, but the earlier one that someone introduced to me in such a way that I was able to understand and use in your electronics. I needed in my tape recorder also a high quality phono preamplifier and head amps with very low noise . I used a parallel connection of current sources.

Why? Well, the history of this discovery goes back to before World War II, when quantum physics developed. At that time, mathematics related to stochastic phenomena was also strongly developed, because quantum physics is based on it. At the time, physicists observed a very strange phenomenon in which stochastic phenomena, including noise phenomena, are governed by strange mathematics, other than that which is ruled by a countable phenomena, ie correlated. For example, two correlated signals are added algebraically - say two voltages from two batteries or two acoustic signal voltages. But the two independent noises no longer add algebraically only mean square (i.e. like the root).

This meant interesting possibilities for audio devices that were picked up by sound engineers in the early 1950s. Many of us who still remember a deep communion associate that the first secretaries always had many microphones in front of them during the speeches. The more important, the more microphones. Dignitaries thought that it emphasized their importance, and in reality the causes were mathematical-physical. Well, the sound engineers realized that every such despotic tyrant stood on the podium and spoke with his eyes stuck to the sky, in a word he did not speak in the direction of microphones. As the head is far from the microphones, the sound disappears to the square of the distance, and the voice quickly shrivels.

The sound engineers combined many microphones in series to improve the dynamics of the recording using the previously mentioned phenomenon. From, say, two microphones, a correlated signal was obtained. Phase-shifted, angular, etc., but correlated, or tensions/voice signals were added algebraically - the signal was twice as large. The more microphones, the bigger the signal. And at the same time, the noise was not added algebraically and from, say, 16 microphones, the signal was 16 times larger, but the noise was only about the root of 16, which is 4 times bigger - so the dynamics and the signal-noise ratio increased. Thanks to this, the speeches were clear and sound engineers avoided prison.

Returning to my tape recorder - I needed a phono preamplifier for the MC type cartridge, which was actually new at the time. To reduce the maximum noise, I used eight current amps connected in parallel. So I had a tape recorder with my own electronics, which maybe it did not look very special, but it worked great, so the next step was to use it and make a recording. Already after the first recording of a ....toilet cistern made for the purposes of the school play, I knew that I had a lifetime profession - I would be recording sound and building audio equipment, above all the loudspeakers. I have set up my recording studio at the end of high school and since then I have been doing the same thing all my life. So you can say that I'm not developing.

So you actually started from the recording studio, I'm talking about commercial activity, and the equipment came later?
In fact, it started with the PA sound systems of concerts. It seemed to me then that I was making good loudspeakers and amplifiers so that I could use them commercially to amplify, sometimes even large, concerts. For example, one of the almost legendary rock concerts in Cracovia Barbakan took place on my equipment.

Since we have already mentioned the recording studio, maybe you will share some names or names of bands from the beginning of this activity? Or maybe there was a special recording that you remember the most?
There are really many recordings that were special. As my assistant once judged, thousands people have passed through the company over 30 years of activity.

TR Studio

But maybe someone from the beginning ...?
Well, maybe *Boys from the Square of Arms**, many people still remember them in Poland. They came to me when they were not even known at all and the first recording of * Aeroplan ** took place at my equipment in the studio on Copernicus str. in Krakow, where we played wood rasp on plates, because I wanted to have good and crisp cymbal sound. Of course later I met many great musicians - Ścierański and Stryszowski and Marek Grechuta, Myslovitz with whom I made friends.

My name is Marek by Marek Grechuta ... :)
Later, many, many famous musicians from abroad also visited me, including musician from Genesis, Winton Marsalis, and Polish ones Zbigniew Preisner - IRA, Myslovitz, Skaldowie and Łzy - Song *Eyes wide shut**, the recording that has taken over all of Poland is one of my recordings. During all these years, we've made so many recordings that I can say that I'm persecuting Poles, even though they do not even realize how many songs and voice recordings they listen to on radio or from recordings came out of my studio.

Do your private musical preferences influence the selection of the artists your studio records?
Everything I do, I do for love for music, it's the most important thing, and only then is it my way of life and making money. I treat people who come to me a bit like a doctor - I try to help them, just get a good sound. However, it is impossible to hide that because there are many people willing to record and I am not able to handle all of them, I can afford dressing up and I can choose above all what interests me musically.

Me, as a man who also loves music, is always interested in the question of how much influence the final sound we hear from discs has on the band, and what is the contribution of the studio. As you well know, audiophiles treat the people responsible for recording their beloved bands a bit like enemies guilty of poor sound quality, which is well heard on the coolest systems.
Working in a recording studio is always the interaction between the band and the performer, which sometimes transforms into a producer, regardless of whether the musicians want it or not. And now, a poor implementer-sound engineer is the so-called a sleepy knight who sleeps on the knobs and presses only the "record" and "stop". However, a good producer is one who is also a producer who runs the band through recording and sound meanders, because the band simply does not know about it. Because the band does not need to know, does not need to know what can be done in the studio with microphones, processors, etc. A good producer should be during the recording such a crazy madman, be creative, have lots of ideas. If this is the case, its impact on the final sound can be very large.

As an example, I will mention the mentioned band ŁZY (*Tears**)s and *Eyes wide shut**, where I, as the sound engineer /co-producer, proposed to take the strings to record. I called Michał Jelonek, a friend of mine, saying: "come, give me a nice fiddle/violin." He arrived and created 30 tracks. Then I found out that cello would be more useful. I took my ex-schoolgirl from my National School of Music (where I was before a teacher of sound recordings techniques) - Justyna Osiecka - great musician on cello, which we can hear before entering the choruses of Ana Wyszkoni. This shows what effect the sound engineer has - without these ideas the song would probably be like the band wanted at the beginning, i.e. without the violin and without the cello. That is, in my opinion, the role of a good sound engineer and me, a man who loves music, sometimes even exults in it.

Do you also mastering the recorded material?

Yes, I think that every studio should do everything to keep the concept consistent. He must supervise all stages up to and including the last. And mastering, although it is just such a final polisher, not even a cut, but just a delicate polisher, it is also important to keep this consistency of the concept. If the studio has no control over this final polisher, then you can then find many “scratches” on the recording- I mean not perfect sound.

In what format do you record in TR Studio?
Both digitally and analog. In the studio we have a 3-head, 24-track analogue tape recorder for 2 "tape and of course digital recorders, DAW PRO Tools 12, except that we are talking about dedicated recorders, not about recording on personal computers. When I want reliability, I use, for example, Fostex multitrack recording systems. The Fostex company is the first company in the world, next to Studer, which built small portable multitrack recording systems, thanks to which they have enormous experience in this field, and their devices are actually reliable. In a word, registration/recording of tracks willingly on a digit, mastering in analogue, and mixing only in analogue domain, on purely analog console.

Let's leave the studio for now ...
Actually, it was not supposed to be the topic of the meeting ..

Apparently not, but after all one part of your activity is strongly related to the other - experience from the studio, from recording music, must somehow translate into how you build the equipment to play it.
Absolutely yes, you hit the nail on the head. Something that in my opinion is a great pain for many audio equipment producers in the world, and in particular loudspeakers, is the fact that there is no connection between what the producers create and what is happening in the recording studios. I was very lucky and it was fun that I had my recording studio, in which for a few decades there was a lot of fantastic, musical things that I "felt" I experienced.

At the same time, please note that the recording studio is a great testing ground. Not only do the "white mice" come to the "lab" themselves and submit themselves to the "operation" voluntarily, and yet the sound engineer can help as well as "kick" everything, they still pay for it. And seriously - in the recording studio the sound engineer does not have the opportunity to enter the musician's head and see what and how he feels and hears - each one of us hears differently, I have no doubts about how many speakers and headphones on the market. And it worries me a lot when someone claims to have built the best system or the best device in the world.

Returning to the studio - I can not look at the musician's head, I can only look at his face and read from it, whether he is happy or not. I turn the knobs so that I like the sound and see if the same thing pleases contractor. If I see a smile on his face or I hear from him: "cool, give me more", then the matter is clear. So we have a perfect *feedback**, feedback that allows for cooperation between the musicians and the sound engineer/ producer.

TR STUDIOS A self-made analog console.

Recording for several decades of musicians from around the world, from all continents, Chinese, Japanese, Americans, Germans, musicians from Africa etc , I met something like "average taste" of people from many parts of the world playing very different music, from jazz to the heaviest, metal formations. So, having dealt with such a huge and diverse group of musicians, I learned what is probably the static average of the good sound of the recording as a whole, as well as individual instruments. So when I create my own loudspeakers, I listen to them with a critical ear and based on my studio experience I assess whether what I hear would appeal to the musicians who recorded with me.

So you can say that the recording studio is a great training ground, because it teaches how other people listen to music. People who build audio systems without contact with musicians is a situation for me, as if someone without a sense created things related to this sense for people who have it. And this is often heard in audio equipment, which is beautiful, it costs a lot, and while listening to them I have the impression that their creator has never heard this or another instrument live.

Well, yes, but you yourself admitted that he is doing equipment that is supposed to sound so that he would like the musicians, and meanwhile it is intended for "ordinary" people, and not for musicians. The taste of the latter does not have to correspond to those who are to buy the speakers.

It's true, people brought up on a disco polo, listening to compressed mp3s from You Tube do not know how the instruments really sound and here we are a little bit weary. Fortunately, more and more audiophiles use high quality uncompressed files, and not only - and WAVs, but also flack or DSD. So I do not have any remorse to try to reproduce the sound of a living instrument as faithfully as possible. There are instruments, for example a trumpet, which are great sound testers that give a lot of information about whether the system is distorting the sound. In any case, I am guided by the sound of live instruments, because all music, maybe synthetic, is made on live instruments.

Musicians who record their works probably want their fans to be able to close their eyes and "see" the performers playing (almost) live. That's why I think constructors who do not have many years of experience in a recording studio are already in a worse position at the start. Of course, there are many constructors who are active musicians - their starting point is much more interesting.

I will come back to the studio for a moment. Are there any young people in Poland who want to learn to work in a studio, learn about its secrets? I'm asking because I know that there is a problem with Japan, for example.
I get a huge amount of e-mails from young adepts asking for the opportunity to do internships in my studio, but unfortunately I have to refuse for lack of time. However, there are a lot of them. I have a problem with the second part of my activity, Zeta Zero speakers, and especially 360 Orbits. I realize that I have a few years and that I need to create documentation of these extremely complicated constructions, so that someone could take over after me like passing a baton. A lot of time, energy and money have been put into the development of many solutions used in these columns, so it would be a pity that this knowledge would be lost.

TR STUDIOS today

In this way, we have reached the theoretically main topic of our conversation, i.e. Orbital 360 columns. As I understand it, they are a kind of continuation of the rotational idea, and thus the omnipresent column, created years ago to conquer the heart of a beautiful friend.
Absolutely yes. Throughout my life thinking about speakers, I imagined that omnidirectional sound would be something very real, compatible with the reality of natural sound sources, ie. instruments, because virtually all of them are multidirectional. For a moment I will go back to the time of my first revolving column. Sometime after it was created, I learned that there was a man named Hammond - we all know the fantastic sound of the Hammond organs - who had already created the rotating column Leslie (accompanying the organs). Of course, heavenly better made and sounding than mine.

So I knew that my work is not yet. Later, even after creating your own brand Zeta Zero, creating classic columns, such as the Venus model, using directional transducers, including my beloved ribbon, I was wondering how to transfer the acquired knowledge and experience with ribbons on a construction that would be omnipresent-omnidirectional. Orbital is the culmination of this idea, as it is an omni-directional column and therefore alsoit is round - an indispensable condition.

They are not only round but also heavy.
Yes, the Orbitals are quite big and quite heavy speakers. I myself have problems with my spine, when I was designing them, I assumed that they can not be a colossos that are not being brought everywhere. They were supposed to be like Lego bricks. That is why they are in fact made up of three parts. Separately we have a warhead/round emiter - this is Low-med, medium and high frequency section, it's about 30 kg (depends on which model), bass section ..., OK, it's packed in a lock and two people have to bring it in, but they can handle it calmly, no and granite base - it's about a dozen kilos.

Bringing in three such elements, or one column weighing some 70 to 100 kg in total - the choice was simple. And the users like it too, because they can afford it (relatively easy to carry.) I have a customer who listens to Orbitals at home, but sometimes as the weather is good, it's up to ... the garden. Thanks to the modular construction it is possible. the fact that even the current version, which is already the next stage of development of this model, is an extremely complicated construction. In the first version of Orbital, written in Excell, there were over two thousand components, then I slimmed down to just over a thousand, but it was still a nightmare for me I'm still struggling to reduce the number of parts, but it's still an incredibly complicated construction.

The latest version of Orbital is the Bi-Stereo version ...
Yes. When the Orbitals 360 were finally created and met with enthusiastic reception of music lovers and many of my clients, I decided to take one more step, realize one more youthful dream and build a stereo column. The new version works in a mode that - looks like it - I invented and named it just Bi-Stereo. Bi-Stereo is already reserved in the Polish Patent Office, it is our intellectual property. This version is not only omni-directional, but in itself, one piece, it can provide stereo sound. It can then get a signal from two channels and then it emits its own stereo field.

So, from one "normal" amplifier we send a signal to four terminals in a column with four speaker cables?
That's it, or if someone is a purist like me, and even uses bi-wiring, eight cables into one column. The speakers are not particularly demanding at all. My friend brought me such a regular AVM amplifier a few days ago and as it turned out with the Orbital, it sounds really good. I even have a 2 x 15W tube amp and it is also great, but of course rock metallic concert with such a tube amp rather I will not let go. I will add one thing right away. If a client who buys an Orbital360 has his or her beloved amplifier, I always ask him to bring it to me first. As a constructor of these speakers, I am able to strongly influence the characteristics of their playing by matching and adjusting them to a specific amplifier.

But what are you guided by in such cases? Since, in principle, the sound is to be faithful to living instruments, such fidelity is only one, so to speak.
I have excellent measuring equipment, even the majority of institutions in our country do not have such equipment as I have. Many people think that since I am an engineer, I am guided by the results of measurements. In the meantime, I am in the first place guided by what my ears tell me, and only then I verify what I hear with measurements, and the final verification and so again is done with the help of the ears.

So matching the speakers to a specific amplifier is *de facto** correcting its own problems?
Yes, this is correcting their weaknesses, because most amplifiers have such audio problems. I try to compensate for these deficiencies as much as possible and in most cases I succeed. Orbital360 are also equipped with a number of switches. For example, what I've always dreamed of, and what is not available on the market, in Orbital there is a possibility of switching the phase in each band. The 360 ​​Orbitals are 4-way loudspeakers, and I can change the phase of each track. There is also the possibility of attenuation in individual bands - this is also done with switches, which you can choose in a few seconds. Of course, you have to know what you are doing, but a person who knows a little about it is able to adjust the sound to the acoustics of the room to a large extent.

A set of transducers for Orbitals

So we have a 4-way design. There is a bass section at the bottom ...
Yes and please note that it is arranged vertically. In the case of small Orbitals and the largest Reference, bass drivers, directed downwards and upwards, work in a bass-reflex housing, and in medium-sized models, I use enclosures with a labirynth-transmission line. Of course, the decision on the type of housing for each model was made on the basis of innumerable tests and each time we chose an option that simply sounded best. That is why, among other things, it took 17 years to play with creating Orbitals and ZETA ZERO.

That's one way, but I understand that the other three are in the head. How is it solved?
Orbital is a ribbon column where the membrane is split balanced. It means that the diaphragm is divided into several dozen parts, I will not say how many, so as not to facilitate the competition task, processing various frequency ranges by regulating the mass of these parts. And now, two more bands are supported by a ribbon transducer, and one by supporting carbon midrange drivers and they play up and down. These are classic pickups, one game for the coupling chamber and the other up. This coupling chamber plays a huge role, so I've spent a long time optimizing it.

I understand that the Bi-Stereo version is not about doubling the number of transducers in the column?
No, the point is that one column gets a signal from both channels, which is properly distributed - I can decide on which parts of the membrane the signal from a given channel is received.

Is there no digital circuit that distributes the signal?
No, absolutely not. I'm an analog purist - no digits, no processing! The column is a device, let's call it passive, there is no electronics. In Venus columns I used a special computerized protection system - a type of “black box” that recorded transducer overloads, but also dealt with their protection and cooling. In Orbital there is no electronics, only pure physics, let's call it: mechanical and acoustic.

You mentioned earlier about the rotating column of Leslie Hammond, and how do omnipolar MBL speakers go to Orbitals?
Orbital 360 is a completely different foundation. All our competition is based on - I would not call it primitive, but this word is the best word - a primitive principle of action. Their transducers are classic, with a coil, and only these transducers push such special synthetic leaves. So we have a coil transducer with all its imperfections, which are not present in the ribbon transducer, because the latter is hundreds of times lighter compared to even the lightest traditional coil systems, and especially in tweeters it is very important.

In addition, in the MBL this urethral vibration system is additionally loaded with these plastic elements. Therefore, the vibration mass increases, so the properties in the area of ​​impulse response and frequency response worsen - the disadvantages themselves, no advantages. However, the fact is that with the help of many such plastic leaves, the effect of radiating the sound wave around the loudspeakers can be created.

In other words - MBL is a completely different principle of operation, worse, narrower frequency response, lower efficiency, which means that MBLs have to be powered by amplifiers with huge powers. In addition, the MBL's bass section is a classic, directional box, so you can not talk about the directional bass in these loudspeakers. In the case of Orbitals, it is a fully omni-directional column in the horizontal plane in full bandwidth.

With the fact that in the case of bass it is less important.
You've described it well - smaller, but still have.

Since 360 ​​Orbitals are definitely better than classic speakers, why exactly do you do the Venus model?
The Venus model was made earlier, when I could not build Orbitals yet. The scope of knowledge, material engineering that is needed to build Orbitals is so big that I had to build classic ribbon bands for many years and only learn to create the right materials. I had to reach for, for example, Graphene. I do not make Graphene, I order it. In any case, I use such advanced material technologies in Orbital that I have not been able to do it for many years.

While building Venus, I discovered many problems related to material engineering, hence my subjects have topics such as very high vacuum, which is why I use turbomolecular pumps that cost from several dozen to even several hundred thousand zlotys. The very high vacuum we produce is needed, for example, for work in very high purity, even over membranes.

The process of producing membranes is basically our greatest secret, plus the processes we use to get very high strengths. These are needed, for example, in home cinemas, where high power is essential, and at the same time, we do not want any distortion. In a word, to build Orbitals, I had to delve into topics related to materials, or even to create certain processes. For example, as is well known, aluminum is not soldered. It was just that I needed it, so I commissioned able people to develop such a process, and they did it.

You have already provided a huge amount of information regarding the speakers and the recording studio, so let me end up with a short question about the electronics you also offer. What is the genesis of its creation? As a response to the imperfection of what is available on the market?
That's a good question. I, electronics engineer, I'm bored with electronics. Electronics on the market is mass, often very good. Although I officially deal with columns that are my passion, I decided to create electronics for them - amplifiers and specially my own preamplifier, from which I am particularly proud. I build it on the principle: "if someone does not have anything and needs something extreme, in many respects, I can offer an electronics option from Zeta Zero."

If, however, someone already has electronics and wants to buy my speakers, I am always asking him to come to me with his amplifier and listen to it with these speakers. I know from experience that even if you, whether a particular man, were focused on the sale of their electronics, after listening to the Orbital, they often change their mind and the electronics stay. Why? Because 90% of sound problems, distortions arises in columns and this is due to the fundamental laws of physics.

The physicist says that always the transformation of energy from one form into another is accompanied by an increase in entropy (as the physicist will say), the layman will say: he warms up, the mathematician will say: distortions increase. In other words, converting energy from one form to another generates distortion and some energy is lost in the form of heat. Therefore, each energy conversion process is by definition a non-linear process, and if it is nonlinear it causes distortion.

In the audio system, the loudspeaker is the only element in which energy is processed twice. Once from electricity to mechanical and then from mechanical (vibration) to acoustic wave. We introduce distortions in the first process of transforming the form of energy, and then multiply them with another such process. Therefore, the column, each, generates the most distortion, and the electronics, in comparison, definitely less. That's why for me, a specialist in electronics for audio devices, electronics is not a real challenge, or a fetish, the challenge is the speakers. That's why it deals with them, and electronics is only an add-on intended for someone who has not had his system so far. He can listen to the set, or speakers and amplification, and then decide if he likes it.

Thomas, thank you for your time and I hope that we will be able to organize Orbitals with me. After today's meeting, my curiosity and willingness to learn more about these speakers has grown.
Thank you too, we'll see what we can do :)